God Save The King! And his kingdom! ~ * ~ pg123 in-depth ~ * ~ posted 2020Jan I debated on putting this up - it got so involved! Extremists just really get my goat sometimes. ^,^ ~ I may, from time to time, add links to more articles. ~

Vegetarian Food For Thought in detail
...and How "for the animals" are they really?

Some vegetarians are so extreme about it that they say the whole world should be vegetarian and shame on people for eating meat because cattle ranchers are dooming the planet. They want to eliminate cows - both beef and dairy. It boggles me.

NOTE: Not all vegetarians are extremist about it. This is to address the unenlightened preaching of extremists wanting to eliminate cattle worldwide, some even all livestock, which I feel is not considering the big picture. I also poke at "for the animals" condemnation of others that goes hand-in-hand with vegetarianism, as many of them get on a high horse while themselves not even truly following through on it. ~ And this is solely my personal insights and poking. Keep in mind I don't believe in extremism and that some of my counters may seem extreme just to make a point. I believe in biodiversity in our food, too. ^_~ There's lots of articles out there: I tried to link to non-preachy ones that had actually done research and were easy to digest.

"Let's be kind and eat only veggies"..? Okay, um, Hello? What about all the forests rampantly clearcut and burnt down for crop farming? Is that kind? It's not all done for just livestock, you know. (Deforestation for Kids) More would continue to be cleared for cropland to grow those extra veggies they want everyone to depend on. (more details below) What about all the essential migration routes disrupted and even completely blocked by the spread of cropland, isolating wildlife populations, preventing genetic diversity, and making disease outbreaks more devastating? Not kind. And what about the additional wildlife killed to prevent them from eating or damaging the foodcrops? That's not very kind. People currently are like that, so don't try to tell us it wouldn't be like that. It's not just predators raiding livestock that get killed: Lots and lots of wildlife is poached to keep them out of crops. Trading one for the other doesn't support it as an excuse to ban cattle. They also don't mention (probably don't even think about) all the additional chemical fertilizers and pesticides that would be used on those crops and then unkindly run off into our water sources. I'm pretty sure we have enough trouble with what already runs off into them.

Whether it's raising livestock or plant crops, the mentality of people to carelessly deplete land then destroy wildlife for fresh land to deplete and poison is the same.

The whole World becoming vegetarian isn't going to magically make it all better.

Make everyone vegetarian because it will cut down on harmful emissions and save the planet, and free up land currently used for grazing and farm animal food? Well, like I pointed out, food crops would need to increase and that land is depleted. It could not just "return to the wild", either - not without lots of help for the biodiversity to recover and not just be weed plots. Then, there's all the harmful exhaust from the farm machinery used for those additional food crops, which still need planted, maintained, harvested, processed and transported by "emissions"-spouting equipment and vehicles. - Yeah, maybe it's a "different kind" of harmful emissions, but haven't scientists and activists been touting the evils of industrialization for decades? Just because one harmful emission is currently viewed as the lesser evil, doesn't make it suddenly okay to have.

[ days later addition..: Yeah, forgot a link about carbon dioxide on "harmful exhaust" above. And as the main source of bad CO2 is use of fossil-fuels, it made me wonder if fossil-fuel companies are the ones stoking the push over cattle emissions in order to take the heat off themselves. hmm... ;p There's even people who claim that having all this extra carbon dioxide is wonderful, because some is necessary for plant life. Well, water and sunshine are necessary, too, but too much of either can kill. Smithsonian has an in-depth site on ocean health. ]

And they never mention the piles of rotting discarded veggies that didn't make the cut so are left to the side of the field to ferment and stink and "emit gasses". (I had a childhood friend who lived next to a potato field and know firsthand about that. pewey! - rotting fruit, like apples or grapes, smell good, veggies don't.) ~ Decided to find out what gas rotting vegetation emits and found more great info to share. Yeah, cows aren't the only source! Pretty interesting that human excess of CO2 facilitated an increase in some methane sources. You can't curtail the other without getting the first one under control.

None of them even consider simply changing what cattle are fed... When you eat onions or garlic, what are your burps, your "emissions", like? Same thing with animals: Diet affects their "emissions". Oh, cars they'll change the fuel on, but cattle? pfft, just get rid of them period! Sorry, Bessy, seems they're vegetarian because they don't love animals. ;_;

When they put forth "models" of "how it would be", I only see the elimination of meat/cows in their figures. I don't see indication that they are factoring in the increase of food crop farming. In fact, I see quite a bit of totally ignoring and brushing under the rug - like claiming all that pastureland would simply return to the wild and deforestation would end. This article from BBC actually addresses a lot of my own points and supports a balance between the two sides as best, but even their figures only cite an elimination of red meat without indication of taking into account an increase in food farming emissions in the chart. They even actually use the argument that herds of wild cattle could return to those lands. ...^o^ Um... Were they not just extolling the evil emissions of cattle and how we should eliminate them? Replacing them with a different kind of cattle doesn't exactly support that stance...^.^

They also cite the claim that some of those lands would easily be switched over to cropland (and halt deforestation in its tracks), but then mention how they're too depleted to support other plantlife so would need lots of help to become even wild habitat again...

People deforest new areas, endlessly destroying wildlife habitat, for cropland for that very reason: They want fresh, not-yet-depleted, fertile land. If they were willing to use depleted land, they wouldn't be constantly gobbling up and stripping fresh land RIGHT NOW. The article tries to be balanced and to address all the nooks and crannies and sides, but you see how difficult it is. It's not a clearcut either-or issue.

It's brought up that a lot of current crops are to feed the cattle that extremists want to get rid of, so those crops would be diverted to human use and negate any "increase" in for-human crops. Well, it's not that simple: A great percentage of those "livestock crops" is hay. Now, some people like to chew on hay, but we don't eat it. ^.^ Rather than be switched to a human foodcrop, lots of those fields would just be left to go to weed, with people elsewhere, or even nearby, still clearing fresh land for their own crops. This also brought to mind, for me, that many people aren't aware of how much wildlife also depends on those crops grown for livestock. Eliminate all these "livestock" crops that aren't as rigorously defended, by discontinuing them or switching them for human use, and you're leaving wildlife only human food crops to munch on and creating more human-wildlife conflict. ...and they'd probably find some way to blame that on Bessy, too, the meanie cow-haters. ;p

In other arguments... Let's toss in exchanging antibiotic and hormone use in animals for genetically modified veggies. Not my blanket argument - their extremist claims. ...Well, my blanket counter to their blanket argument. ;p Lots of livestock farmers and companies are just as against using antibiotics and hormones in their animals. I can easily find dairy and meat that are hormone free, as well as veggies that are NonGMO. We don't need to stop eating meat or veggies to avoid either issue.

Oh, being vegetarian will keep people from dying from food-borne illnesses? ...Um... Do they not see the numerous, sometimes nationwide or even international, alerts about veggies being recalled for E coli or salmonella contamination and other potentially deadly things? Or are they counting on people being ignorant of it? [ here's a recent major one for listeria 2019Nov3 ] Veggies aren't saints.

Extremists also seem to ignore or brush off how difficult it is to get the right nutrients from a strictly vegetarian diet. They don't seem to consider, or simply gloss over, how much harder that would be in poor areas if they didn't have meat or dairy. Many, many people - children! - die of malnutrition already without the added restriction. It's all well and good to claim there's veggies with plenty of protein and other essential nutrients, but, in practice, the availability of those magic veggies to everyone isn't there - and they aren't really a magic cure (read on). Plants are particular about where they'll grow and would be costly to provide to everyone. You can get a lot of these nutrients from dairy and eggs, but, remember, they want to eliminate those, too. Is it really "less emissions" than eating a cow that's right there, or drinking its milk, to have a bunch of these magic veggies produced, processed and shipped to them?

Many focus on protein, but there are many other nutrients only found in animal sources, and some that are found in plants but not in sufficient amounts or of the right type. Yep, there are types of iron, VK, VD, and many others, but vegans don't like to mention that the types of these nutrients in plants aren't readily absorbed by our bodies. Animals convert plant nutrients into ones we can absorb. The most absorbable form of iron, heme iron, is only found in red meat - and it helps you absorb the type of iron found in plants. Vitamin B12 is almost exclusively found in meat and dairy. A couple of plant sources, like seaweed, don't contain sufficient amounts; and how many can run out and get seaweed? Not everyone is lucky enough to have a pharmacy full of supplements next door, and it's not healthy to be dependent on supplements.

THE GLARING TRUTH IS: Though you can force it to, our bodies aren't built to live on plants alone - and when you have to depend on specially fortified foods and supplements, you aren't really surviving and healthy on just plants, are you?

2020March ROFLOL ~ I came across a trailer for a series made from Dr. Seuss' Green Eggs and Ham story. At the end of the trailer, another character looks down at Sam and very seriously informs him, "I'm vegan." Sam very solemnly takes the person's hand, "I'm so sorry... How long have you known?" ... ^o^ Ah, so adorable coming from him, that hit my funny bone pretty hard. ;p Thought I'd share. ^_^

{ There are also nutrients only found in fruits and vegetables. I love many fruits and veggies! The key is really this often heard phrase, "a balanced diet". - Everything is about balance! Life is about balance! Saving the planet is about balance! ^_~ }

Vegetarian because they're against killing or "exploiting" animals? ~ The main event! ^o^ ~ Have they truly examined how animal friendly they are?

I'm sure you've heard of protests against oil pipelines because they disrupt and endanger wildlife. How many oil spills have you heard about devastating our oceans and waterways worldwide? Well, all kinds of things with motors use that oil as lubricant in their moving parts, from cars to kitchen appliances to toys. How many of them do these extremists use?

By that blanket 'because we love animals' definition thrown around, even driving an electric car or using a blender to make your veggie smoothie is evil - because they are lubricated with oil, harvesting and transport of which can be deadly to animals. Buying any mass produced product is evil, because the machines that make or package them use oil. Things like petroleum jelly (aka Vaseline), mineral oil, baby oil, and parafin wax are just a few of many end products that come from that same crude oil.

Dare we get into what rubber plantations do to the environment? Tires and shoe bottoms are just a couple of things you'll find with it. Have these extremists traded in their cars and bikes to go barefoot? I highly doubt it. They probably still use straws and plastic wrap, too...

Like electronics? I'm sure these extremists all have phones and use radios, tvs, computers and such. Do they know if the mines for the precious metals used in them are environmentally friendly? ...and there's those mass production machines using evil oil again, and all that animal-killing plastic...

In for a penny, in for a pound. If they're going to make such a condemning stance, looking down their noses at others, even flaming people about it, there's no picking and choosing. They need to completely restrict themselves from modern life to be true to their preaching, or else look in the mirror and tsk tsk at themselves. ;p

Just not eating meat and dairy doesn't make one a saint for animals.

Like jello? Did you ever look up what gelatin is made from? It's in other everyday foods, too. (Sorry if this grosses anyone out ^,^, but, hey, this is reality. ;p ...I knew there was a reason I don't like marshmallows... ^_~)

Palm is cheap so is in almost everything these days, from foods to lotions and more - and it can hide behind names like "stearic acid". Those plantations are responsible for mass deforestation and loss of endangered animals. Some try to promote palm as so much better than similar crops, because it's cheap and you can grow more of it in the same space - and want us to grow even more of it! Yet, they fail to mention how very many people are intolerant and allergic to it. I am. Researching that is how I found out how common it is, and what palm plantations do to wildlife. No: Palm is not a magic cure.

Honey for food, soap, lotion and shampoo... Wax for crayons, candles, chapstick and lip balm, photo paper, make-up, even the coating on many pain relievers and supplements - and on apples to keep them fresh! ...harvested from the hard work of bees. Or do they not count?

Are they sure that wood holding their house together is sustainably sourced and without endangering any animals? What about their lovely wood furniture and cabinets?

Enjoy pizza, cake, cookies, pasta, gravy, buttermilk biscuits, pancakes, cream cheese frosting, pudding, chocolates and candy bars, milkshakes and ice cream, grilled cheese sandwiches, baby formula, some nice healthy yogurt? Think about the ingredients in them and where those ingredients come from. Extremists condemn people who use eggs and dairy, claiming it's evil exploitation of animals or that it supports cattle farming which they view as killing the planet. I wonder how many of them actually refrain from all products that use them... They don't like to mention that fruits and veggies are often sourced from farms and companies that aren't environmentally, or animal, friendly. They should think about that phrase, "When you point your finger at someone, there's three pointing back at you."

How many vegetarians have dogs or cats? Do they know what's in petfood? Yep: Dismiss the livestock industry, and what are dog and cat owners to do for pet food? I bet extremists never thought of that one.

Meat sources are essential to dog and cat health, though some vegetarians force their pets to be, too. ~ If you want a vegetarian pet, then PLEASE pick an animal that is naturally vegetarian: Don't adopt a predator. Forcing dogs and, especially, cats to eat a purely vegetarian diet can cause severe health problems and even kill them. They aren't built to handle that and can only get certain nutrients they need from meat: Prey animals convert plant nutrients into ones carnivores can absorb. Considering that forcing these pets to be vegetarian can cause harmful deficiencies, they're obviously not doing it for the welfare of the animal: They are doing it for their own ideal. And their excuse is that they're animal lovers? ...hmmm...

Or, is part of their agenda to eliminate having pets, too? There are extremists who actually state they believe that animals have no benefit whatsoever from human contact, pooh-poohing on people who cuddle animals in their care. (Here's some recent nurturing examples of human contact benefiting wildlife. Depriving wildlife of compassion is what would be inhumane.) I really don't see humans ever giving up cats and dogs, or having pets, or having wildlife sanctuaries, so eliminating the petfood industry et al by eliminating the livestock industry isn't a good idea.

I also wonder: How many of these "for the animals" extremists have bird feeders? Did you know that this common practice has directly affected and changed migratory behaviour and contributes to the spread of deadly diseases between species that would not normally interact? Many people extoll the wonderfulness of the feeders bringing the birds up close and in great numbers for our enjoyment. Yet, 'manipulation of animals for our own gain' is part of extremists' definition of "exploitation of animals".

{ Don't worry! I love birdfeeders. ^_~ Just keep them clean and well-spaced, not letting the seeds get moldy and such. Keep nectar feeders clean, too, and Do Not use red dye in it! It could poison the hummingbirds. Audubon has some tips. }

Do these extremist "animal lovers" feed bread to the birds? or to fish or other animals? Naughty, naughty. Bread has no nutritional value to animals, and filling up on that can prevent them from eating what they need to to be healthy. Too, such processed foods can cause deformities in animals, and when moldy it can make them sick and even result in death. The practice also causes animals to unnaturally congregate and risk disease outbreaks and even endanger people. It can also pollute the ecosystem it is thrown into and harm other wildlife. Weren't they just preaching how saintly they are to animals..? ...and as for that bread, are they growing the wheat for it themselves, organically and without emission-spouting machinery? Are they milling it naturally and refraining from bleaching it?

{ When younger, I saw deformed ducks at a park - now I know what was wrong with them! Bird seeds, cracked corn, or rolled oats are great for ducks and other small animals. Please, switch! ^_^ ~ Pymatuning anyone? (WSJ article was good but may not show for everyone.) Even I was guilty of that, years ago, and, in fact, Pymatuning changing their policy in 2009 and asking the public to change, too, is what enlightened me to learn more about the cons of giving bread to animals. Unfortunately, the public was only concerned with their own glee and pockets and not the welfare of wildlife and forced the park to continue allowing tourists to deluge the lake with old bread and garbage. At least, please, use non-moldy whole-grain bread, if not the fish pellets. Be bold as a lion and Be the change! ^_^ }

Anti-livestock veggie extremists can't even use organic natural fertilizer for their veggie gardens and flowerbeds - and want to eliminate it for others: Where do you think it comes from?? Use bone meal for your lovely roses? Just look at what it's called, again. Are they trying to close down flower shops and make the whole world dependent on chemical fertilizers which poison the planet enough as it is already? Veggies, floral and all kinds of plants would suffer a whole lot without livestock farms supplying readily available fertilizer. (Horse is great, rabbit is best, but cow is cheap and plentiful.) I certainly don't want more chemicals saturating our soil and water. We're trying to cut back on that - not increase it!

I think you get the idea of how ridiculous extremism can be, and that there's a whole lot more dependent on the livestock industry than vegans disclose. If someone wants to be vegetarian, wonderful - make sure you get enough supplements. Just, please, don't go around on a precariously high horse condemning others as killers of the planet or exploiters of animals, or that complete global vegetarianism will save the world. It's not well-thought, and condemnation of others isn't helpful or nice. I'm not big on meat myself - a bit picky and feel mass-production is out of hand, but I'm not big on mass vegetarianism, either.

I'll reiterate that crop farming is no saint when it comes to harm to animals or pollution, and some of it actually depends on livestock farming; and humans aren't built to be healthy on plants alone: You need a bit of red meat, especially in the developmental stages, ie children. Being dependent on artificial sources of nutrients is not something to idealize.

Extremism is not well-balanced or healthy - for people, or the planet.

The change that needs to be made is to a nurturing mentality, better management, moderation with less waste, sustainability, peaceful coexistence: Stewardship.

We don't need to stop making or using all such things - we need a great many of them, but we do need to be more aware and responsible, and humane, in how we go about it. Take cacao trees, for example: We are finding ways of growing them within existing rainforest, rather than the farmers clearing the land. ~ * ~ Since ancient times, seaweed has been added to some animal feeds as a healthy alternative or additive; but in the past decade, it was discovered that certain seaweeds greatly reduce and even almost eliminate "harmful emissions" from cattle. Not a quick fix by itself, either, but it shows there are alternatives which support a more balanced approach. ~ * ~ Combined by-products from both can be converted into energy. ~ Rather than condemn either type of farming as a whole, let's encourage better, more aware stewardship.

If people put as much energy into working together for such solutions as they put into taking extreme stances and hating at each other, we could be so much further ahead.

Food for thought.

For King & Country ~ "Cease Fire"
(clips from 2016 Ben Hur movie aren't relevant to here but still cool ^_~)

Note: I actually found out a lot about this because of food allergies I developed in recent years. I need to check every single label, every single time I get a product (because they may change some ingredients - like switching to palm derivatives because it's cheaper). Those ingredients you can't pronounce: I need to find out what they're made from. Palm and soy hide behind hundreds of names! Try looking into the ingredients in the everyday things you eat or use. You'll be quite amazed!

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